Author Topic: Censored Question to Women Play Sport 2013 Conference  (Read 24419 times)

Offline fairfootball

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Re: Censored Question to Women Play Sport 2013 Conference
« Reply #40 on: February 06, 2014, 06:46:26 PM »
Looking again at the setup. Tactically the game would be a disaster. That's not dispariging the idea but for example the positioning of a back four when narrow wouldnt work neither, would overlapping fullbacks and having rotation of position with in the chosen formation. It wuold be horrible to watch freekicks all over the place for transgressing into designated areas.

Although diverting from the subject I’ll try to answer your concerns as you have obviously taken the trouble to read my proposal.
It is very probable that tactics would have to adjust, but I do not see any reason why that would be a disaster, in fact, on balance there is a good chance that it would add to the game.  After all football tactics are evolving over time anyway.
I can see your point about the narrow area to the left of the goal as it was also one of my initial concerns, but upon reflection there would be the same number of players running around the same size field – it’s just a matter once again of a small rethinking of tactics.
As for the increased number of free kicks it is no different than touch-line throw-ins. There are remarkably few of those, as it is generally in neither team’s interests to break up the flow of play.  I’ve also tried to pen the rule to make it simple to referee without unnecessarily restricting the players.
Whilst I do not think it would be a problem I have some doubts about deliberate transgressions from the penalty area into the aforementioned narrow area, so would welcome comments and possible remedies.

Offline fairfootball

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Re: Censored Question to Women Play Sport 2013 Conference
« Reply #41 on: February 06, 2014, 06:54:05 PM »
I've coached girls for 35 years.  We used to put talented girls with boys like the Germans up to 16 or later, but it never works out socially as well for the girls past the age of 9 or 10.  We put them with older girls and women now.  The women's game allows this because the amount of danger and intent is a small fraction of the men's.

I entirely agree with you that early/mid teen years are socially very difficult for both boys and, especially, girls.  However that is not only just applicable to school sports’ fields, but also to all subject areas.  I would argue that it is the very time that there should be even greater contact, as, during puberty, boys and girls need to experience and learn mutual respect for their developing physical as well as emotional and intellectual differences.   
But that’s not the point of this posting as it started being about equality and the law in schools.   Additionally sport has a powerful effect upon stereotyping which, as far as girls are concerned, is almost entirely negative, with consequences well outside the narrow confines and self-interest of sport. 
Whilst your comment was made from the viewpoint of a specialised football coach, nevertheless your argument is sound.  It is why I have proposed FairFootball, which would meet anxieties over direct physical contact between the sexes.  Though my personal view is that those anxieties are exaggerated, FairFootball would allow for more desirable, and arguably more natural, childhood development, than that of segregation.

Offline andydinger

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Re: Censored Question to Women Play Sport 2013 Conference
« Reply #42 on: February 07, 2014, 08:53:20 AM »
Has anyone ever tried to play your game? If so, what was their feedback?

I assume the fact that you didn't answer my question means you've never found anyone to try this? Surely if anyone agreed this is a good idea they might at least help you prove it would work?

Offline Alan

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Girls playing in boys' teams
« Reply #43 on: February 08, 2014, 09:22:11 AM »
In Norway there are girls playing in boys' teams up to about 17 years old and with that experience behind them they are in demand at the elite women's clubs.  Last month a 17-year-old girl keeper who has played in a boy's club 'all her life' made her debut in the women's senior international team  (the team that reached the Final of the European Cup in the summer) in a 1-1 draw against England.
Match report: http://www.womensfootball.eu/forum/index.php/topic,7806.msg77120.html#msg77120
« Last Edit: February 08, 2014, 09:27:17 AM by Alan »
Alltid. Uansett.

Offline fairfootball

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Re: Censored Question to Women Play Sport 2013 Conference
« Reply #44 on: February 08, 2014, 10:33:05 AM »
In Norway there are girls playing in boys' teams up to about 17 years old and with that experience behind them they are in demand at the elite women's clubs.  Last month a 17-year-old girl keeper who has played in a boy's club 'all her life' made her debut in the women's senior international team  (the team that reached the Final of the European Cup in the summer) in a 1-1 draw against England.
Match report: http://www.womensfootball.eu/forum/index.php/topic,7806.msg77120.html#msg77120


Thank you for that comment.   It gives all the naysayers and Jeremiahs food for thought.

Offline raefil

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Re: Censored Question to Women Play Sport 2013 Conference
« Reply #45 on: February 08, 2014, 12:45:36 PM »
What do you mean naysayers?  No-one is objecting to girls playing footy with boys, its your pathetic attempt, i assume as a wind up, to alter the Laws of the game we love. Its downright stupid.  People like you are a stain on society. You come on to to places to cause trouble. for what reason? Your own stupidly inflated ego.

Youve got a group of people, here, who are the most likely to think youve got a decent plan, except for one thing, its absurd beyond belief. 

If you gfeel so passionately about it start your own game. Call it fair football if you like, but stop trying to alter the game that were all happy with. Good luck with your future, if you do start a new game I wish you well.

Crikey, why am i even giving you the time of day?

Offline BillyBoy

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Re: Censored Question to Women Play Sport 2013 Conference
« Reply #46 on: February 08, 2014, 01:32:35 PM »
In Norway there are girls playing in boys' teams up to about 17 years old and with that experience behind them they are in demand at the elite women's clubs.  Last month a 17-year-old girl keeper who has played in a boy's club 'all her life' made her debut in the women's senior international team  (the team that reached the Final of the European Cup in the summer) in a 1-1 draw against England.
Match report: http://www.womensfootball.eu/forum/index.php/topic,7806.msg77120.html#msg77120

That's a heart warming story from across the North Sea, but it doesn't add much really.

What I'd find more interesting, and pertinent to this thread is whether segregated sports at school in Norway, the other Scandinavian countries or Finland are considered illegal, because it is an inequality, which is the starting point of Fairfootball's approach.

If they are illegal have they subsequently addressed this situation by recoding all the games. i.e. fairfootball, fairhandball etc. Discussing the merits, or not as the case maybe of these games is another matter in their own right.

These Nordic countries are often regarded, on some measures, as being the most equal in the world. Although by no means definitive for our situation, I would find their approach as food for thought.

Offline law10

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Re: Censored Question to Women Play Sport 2013 Conference
« Reply #47 on: February 08, 2014, 01:57:41 PM »
There have been teenage girls playing on boys teams in Canada for decades.  It's not unusual.  But unless remote geography is a factor it's completely unnecessary and gratuitous.  In the teenage years, older girls or elite women are a better solution for the development of the individual.

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Re: Censored Question to Women Play Sport 2013 Conference
« Reply #48 on: February 08, 2014, 02:05:28 PM »
Well now it's even seen in this country with some of the full timers at City training with the under 18's...

Offline Alan

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Re: Censored Question to Women Play Sport 2013 Conference
« Reply #49 on: February 08, 2014, 04:42:12 PM »
What I'd find more interesting, and pertinent to this thread is whether segregated sports at school in Norway, the other Scandinavian countries or Finland are considered illegal,
Obviously they are not; in Scandinavia and other places many sports are segregated - by age, sex and ability - and it works well.  We have a contributor with a bee in his bonnet about one of those: he isn't going to change anything and there's no evidence he is even interested in sport other than winding people up . . :).
Alltid. Uansett.

Offline fairfootball

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Re: Censored Question to Women Play Sport 2013 Conference
« Reply #50 on: February 10, 2014, 09:41:57 AM »
What do you mean naysayers?  No-one is objecting to girls playing footy with boys, its your pathetic attempt, i assume as a wind up, to alter the Laws of the game we love. Its downright stupid.  People like you are a stain on society. You come on to to places to cause trouble. for what reason? Your own stupidly inflated ego.

Youve got a group of people, here, who are the most likely to think youve got a decent plan, except for one thing, its absurd beyond belief. 

If you gfeel so passionately about it start your own game. Call it fair football if you like, but stop trying to alter the game that were all happy with. Good luck with your future, if you do start a new game I wish you well.

Crikey, why am i even giving you the time of day?


If it’s ‘absurd beyond belief’ there should be no difficulty in demolishing the proposal using polite debate, with no need for the personal invective as a smokescreen to obscure the message.
 
As the purpose of the proposal is to increase participation, I’m at a loss as to why anyone, especially women, could feel so threatened.  After all it is only a minor modification to a set of game rules that were cobbled together 150 years ago by a bunch of semi-inebriated visionary toffs…….. in the back room of a London pub – not on the top of a mountain in the Sinai Desert (apologies to all Jews and Christians).
 
Just think, if it wasn’t for the likes of me, you’d all still be hacking the legs off one another, or now, heavens forbid, playing American Football.

Offline andydinger

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Re: Censored Question to Women Play Sport 2013 Conference
« Reply #51 on: February 10, 2014, 11:02:02 AM »
As the purpose of the proposal is to increase participation, I’m at a loss as to why anyone, especially women, could feel so threatened.  After all it is only a minor modification to a set of game rules that were cobbled together 150 years ago by a bunch of semi-inebriated visionary toffs…….. in the back room of a London pub – not on the top of a mountain in the Sinai Desert (apologies to all Jews and Christians).

The difference was that those visionaries had tried out their rules in practice and modified their initial ideas until they worked. As a result they had the support of quite a number of influential players and "clubs" (although they weren't what we recognise as clubs today). And so their brilliant game is fundamentally still the same 150 years later and played by countless millions of people (not just men) worldwide.

By comparison, you have never tried out your rules in practice, have never attempted to see if any adjustments would be needed to make them practical, don't have the support of a single player, influential or otherwise, and have no support from any football group of any sort. But I suppose a game is perfect for equality if absolutely all genders, disabilities, ages, faiths, etc. all ignore it equally!  ;D ::)

Offline davey

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Re: Censored Question to Women Play Sport 2013 Conference
« Reply #52 on: February 11, 2014, 11:14:13 AM »
Thought a forum was a platform for debate, not an opportunity to be be offensive. It's all food for thought though, don't you think? Football in this country is basically run by the FA  who have only just begun to think vaguely laterally and minimally outside the box. Their priority is clearly mens' football with token gestures towards the womens' game, and that includes the recent reorganisation of WSL with its concomitant funding changes at certain clubs. People may love the game as it stands but you surely cannot disagree that there have been some very dodgy happenings across the board. I don't mean that the game format should be drastically changed to accomodate women, but just to open minds a bit. Football in this country is run mainly by men for men. To introduce a game for mixed teams probably would spoil both the mens' and womens' game as we know it. Better I think to integrate girls and women at suitable times in their career for strengthening/training purposes which seems to be what other countries do successfully.
PS. My comments are not directed at previous posts, just generally at the thread of this topic

Offline fairfootball

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Re: Censored Question to Women Play Sport 2013 Conference
« Reply #53 on: February 12, 2014, 09:42:53 AM »
As the purpose of the proposal is to increase participation, I’m at a loss as to why anyone, especially women, could feel so threatened.  After all it is only a minor modification to a set of game rules that were cobbled together 150 years ago by a bunch of semi-inebriated visionary toffs…….. in the back room of a London pub – not on the top of a mountain in the Sinai Desert (apologies to all Jews and Christians).

The difference was that those visionaries had tried out their rules in practice and modified their initial ideas until they worked. As a result they had the support of quite a number of influential players and "clubs" (although they weren't what we recognise as clubs today). And so their brilliant game is fundamentally still the same 150 years later and played by countless millions of people (not just men) worldwide.

By comparison, you have never tried out your rules in practice, have never attempted to see if any adjustments would be needed to make them practical, don't have the support of a single player, influential or otherwise, and have no support from any football group of any sort. But I suppose a game is perfect for equality if absolutely all genders, disabilities, ages, faiths, etc. all ignore it equally!  ;D ::)

If you mean by brilliant as being simple, effective and functional, I would agree with you.  Unfortunately, according to the somewhat dubious figures from the FA, only about thirty million of your ‘countless millions’ are women.  That I suggest, by most standards, signifies a pretty major design flaw which was not apparent, and would only have been laughed at, 150 years ago.
 
FairFootball seeks to rectify that with a simple, effective and functional, but more importantly cheap, modification for schools to use, which would have the potential to transform the health and social status of schoolgirls everywhere.   I note that you are not one of the prophetic five star ‘Hero’ members, but nevertheless what do you have to offer – do you have any remedies?  Or, perhaps, as the dinosaurs, you believe everything is perfect!

Hasn’t it struck you as odd that all the respondents to this posting, bar one, chooses to hide their gender on their member’s profile?

Offline fairfootball

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Re: Censored Question to Women Play Sport 2013 Conference
« Reply #54 on: February 12, 2014, 09:50:30 AM »
Thought a forum was a platform for debate, not an opportunity to be be offensive. It's all food for thought though, don't you think? Football in this country is basically run by the FA  who have only just begun to think vaguely laterally and minimally outside the box. Their priority is clearly mens' football with token gestures towards the womens' game, and that includes the recent reorganisation of WSL with its concomitant funding changes at certain clubs. People may love the game as it stands but you surely cannot disagree that there have been some very dodgy happenings across the board. I don't mean that the game format should be drastically changed to accomodate women, but just to open minds a bit. Football in this country is run mainly by men for men. To introduce a game for mixed teams probably would spoil both the mens' and womens' game as we know it. Better I think to integrate girls and women at suitable times in their career for strengthening/training purposes which seems to be what other countries do successfully.
PS. My comments are not directed at previous posts, just generally at the thread of this topic

Bless you for that reply.  It is heartening to know that some can express themselves politely.  May I remind you however that this posting started off being about children and the Equalty Act, but has somehow been transmogrified into a discussion about FairFootball.

You will not be surprised to hear that I do not fully agree with you.  I believe that if only they were given the opportunity, men and women would love to play the game together as long as the rules were modified to accommodate, what most would agree, are the obvious physical imbalances.  Also I would welcome any constructive criticisms of my FairFootball proposal you may have, as, despite the number of replies I have received, the only substantive one, is that there would be too many free kicks.

Offline andydinger

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Re: Censored Question to Women Play Sport 2013 Conference
« Reply #55 on: February 12, 2014, 10:34:38 PM »
If you mean by brilliant as being simple, effective and functional, I would agree with you.  Unfortunately, according to the somewhat dubious figures from the FA, only about thirty million of your ‘countless millions’ are women.  That I suggest, by most standards, signifies a pretty major design flaw which was not apparent, and would only have been laughed at, 150 years ago.
 
FairFootball seeks to rectify that with a simple, effective and functional, but more importantly cheap, modification for schools to use, which would have the potential to transform the health and social status of schoolgirls everywhere.   I note that you are not one of the prophetic five star ‘Hero’ members, but nevertheless what do you have to offer – do you have any remedies?  Or, perhaps, as the dinosaurs, you believe everything is perfect!

OK, I'm going to try just once more to get you to answer my question. If you aren't prepared to do that then I can only assume your devotion to FairFootball is purely dogmatic and unworthy of further debate. The question is: what practical proof do you have that FairFootball is "effective and functional"? Give us even one example of your "game" having actually been played to find out whether it works or not with real kids.

What you don't seem to grasp is that the problem of less girls doing any form of exercise is nothing to do with football or even organised school games and everything to do with society, especially the lack of value it places on female sport. The problems run far deeper than merely the rules of football and will not be changed by inventing a new game which neither girls nor boys want to play. We all want more kids (especially girls) doing exercise, not less, whether that's on the same pitch or on a different one is completely irrelevant.

I'm not a 'Hero member' as I actually spend real time in my community coaching kids and getting as many of them as possible (boys and girls) to enjoy a number of different sports. So my apologies if I don't get involved in pointless pseudo-legal debate about "equality" and instead concentrate on the practical value (or otherwise) of what you or anyone else suggests. My solution is to get personally involved at whatever level I can, whether that is supporting female role models or introducing nursery school kids to the joys of sport, rather than preaching from a distant pulpit.

Offline fairfootball

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Re: Censored Question to Women Play Sport 2013 Conference
« Reply #56 on: February 13, 2014, 11:04:46 AM »
 To Andydinger

Despite doubts I will give you the courtesy of believing that you have read my FairFootball proposal, and did so with an open, constructively critical, mind.  You will therefore be aware that FairFootball is a minor modification and would look and feel, to both spectators and players, exactly like a normal game of football.  Its only practical effect would be to allow disparate groups (boys/girls, men/women, mums/daughters, able/disabled, etc.) to play fairly together, so turn football into a truly inclusive sport.  I agree with you that it should be fully assessed, but no useful conclusions can be drawn just from an ad-hoc bunch of boys and girls running around a field.  It would require proper controlled trials conducted by a qualified research establishment, such as a university.

Football is by far the most popular team sport, not just in participation, but also in both the numbers of spectators and media attention.  I think I would be safe in saying that it is highly biased towards men, with women made to feel unwelcome and at best second rate.  I'm consequently surprised by your assertion that it has a benign effect on the participation of girls in sport.

As in all sectors of education, there is a need for adults, such as you, to give of their time, as long as it’s done for good altruistic reasons.  However saying that you don’t want to get involved in a debate, when you obviously are, is palpable nonsense.   As for equality being a pseudo-legal…….. try telling that to non-white people!

Offline BrianE

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Re: Censored Question to Women Play Sport 2013 Conference
« Reply #57 on: February 13, 2014, 07:54:43 PM »
I think the answer is "no proof at all".


Offline andydinger

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Re: Censored Question to Women Play Sport 2013 Conference
« Reply #58 on: February 14, 2014, 11:23:32 AM »
So to summarise:
  • You have no proof that any spectator or player would regard the "look and feel" as similar to football. You believe it should. Everyone else (as far as I can tell) who has taken the time to read it, thinks it won't. So we'll agree to disagree until any practical assessment, however informal, is done. Good luck finding someone to do that and I look forward to hearing the results.
  • Football is the most popular participation sport (team or otherwise) both in this country and worldwide for women & girls. The only thing we do appear to agree about is that we would both like to see this participation increase still further. So we'll agree to disagree that changing the rules is the most effective way of achieving this. However, if the feedback from the practical assessment above is positive then I would be delighted to be proved wrong.

Offline allibee

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Re: Censored Question to Women Play Sport 2013 Conference
« Reply #59 on: February 15, 2014, 10:20:50 PM »
Just a quick couple of questions to the topic starter (apologies for skim reading the whole thing):

Am I right in understanding that you want equality legislation in place to force boys to play football with girls if the girls want to and the boys don't?

I say this as a mother, aunt and carer of all boys, except for one girl, who would have rather never played football again if someone tried to force them against their will to play something that they found emotionally disturbing and physically retarding

So are you saying you want rights for one sex at the expense of another, ergo: discrimination?