Author Topic: C.O.E. Selection Policy  (Read 14673 times)

Offline midfield general

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C.O.E. Selection Policy
« on: October 21, 2013, 02:19:19 PM »
Just wondered on people's experience of team selection for matches. I know the C.o.E. ethos is player development and the reduction in numbers of Centres was necessary to concentrate the talent (Leaving out the geographical spread of the Centres). However, of our squad there are possibly four players, who depending on the terminology used, or how unkind you wish to be, are a little fortunate to be in a Centre of Excellence. I understand that there needs to be a certain number in the squad to cover for injury/illness/unavailability etc.
My point is, that in my opinion, the fact that these players are getting substantial game time  is now detrimental to the better players.
I appreciate that these players have to be given chance to improve once in the system until their contracts are up.
However, this is the elite level of girls football, and slow progress of some should not hold back the rest.
I know players develop at different speeds and ages. It is with that in mind that I believe centres should be honest and say," You are on the fringe of the ability range. we are prepared to give you a six months or 12 months contract and see how you develop. Your game time will initially be limited, but if you show us improvement, application etc. in training then game time will increase.
In theory, with the right attitude, they should improve, they are getting at least four hours per week of quality coaching!

Any thoughts?

Offline andydinger

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Re: C.O.E. Selection Policy
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2013, 02:41:14 PM »
In what way do you think the game time these players are getting is detrimental to the others? How exactly are they holding them back? Surely not because your daughter loses a few minutes on the pitch? And surely not because they're not winning as much as they should?

Of course winning is not the point at any development centre such as a CoE, which is why everyone who's signed gets a fair share of game time and not just training. It's not like there's a reserve team for them to play in. They'll naturally get less game time than the England Internationals but like everyone else they've paid subs and travelled long distances to play football, not to watch. This is still youth football, not adult after all...

Still, it is amazing to me after all this "concentration of talent" that CoEs are still having to top up their squads with a few they know will never make their 1st team but are needed to make up the numbers.

Offline midfield general

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Re: C.O.E. Selection Policy
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2013, 02:49:24 PM »
Not winning is not the point, obviously. I just believe the better players should play most of most games. Wholesale substitutions at any level of football are detrimental to the flow of the game. I would favour three twenty minutes periods, and substitutions only yo be made in the breaks, unless for an injury. Most of the players, of lower ability, and many others simply do not have the footballing intelligence to slot seamlessly into a game when coming on, in some instances, in unfamiliar positions. ( And I have always been supportive of players playing different positions, but am starting to question that by the time players get to under 17)

Offline bilbobaggins

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Re: C.O.E. Selection Policy
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2013, 03:15:26 PM »
one day in some departments, those fringe players will improve and pass the standard of the "better players" .
then their time on the pitch may exceed your daughters, the critearia is a rounded player not a great dribbler or a great defender.
the outcome may be some excellent players that you did not expect.
i have seen ordanairy players after 3 seasons play for england, i have also seen england players turn out as ordanairy. the development is different in all of these girls.
i think when they get to under 17 most centres make the girls earn their place in the team, but until then they should all get equal time.

Sylvain

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Re: C.O.E. Selection Policy
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2013, 04:56:27 PM »
The way I see it, no CoE team in the country will ever have 18 players of top quality, so there will always be different grading in the players ability.

Offline midfield general

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Re: C.O.E. Selection Policy
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2013, 06:27:00 PM »
I am talking about under 17s now. And am speaking from ten years experience coaching boys from under 6 to under 16 and there is absolutely no doubt that players develop at different levels, what with growth spurts, level of dedication etc. also history is littered with players who began as right backs and ended up as left wingers or similar.
However, I cannot imagine many disciplines, sporting or otherwise, that will wait for the late developers at the expense of the true elite.
Please understand that I am not advocating leaving these players behind, they should in fact receive specific coaching tailored to their needs, in the same way as the better players should.

One thing at least....we have got a bit of an interesting debate going!!!! This forum has been moribund for ages!!!

Offline bilbobaggins

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Re: C.O.E. Selection Policy
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2013, 08:35:44 PM »
so are you saying that your daughter is elite and is being held back by others?

Offline charlie

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Re: C.O.E. Selection Policy
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2013, 08:47:51 AM »
From what I've seen being a talented football player is only one part and even at under 17 level Coe coaches will not be able to foresee the development of players. They need to keep open mind. A wide option of opportunity could be available to the girls. They may decide not to follow a doubtful and possibly underpaid 'career' in womens football. Not many can earn a decent living and may decide to play socially and drop out of the system!

Offline emmajh

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Re: C.O.E. Selection Policy
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2013, 09:17:33 AM »
I understand where midfield is coming from. In our COE they took on 11 in the squad but only 2 players were of a very good standard. Some couldn't kick the ball properly and would frequently miss it, others still used their hands too top the ball!! In my opinion they should've taken on less

Offline midfield general

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Re: C.O.E. Selection Policy
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2013, 11:41:25 AM »
I see some similarities in the education system, i.e: it is better to have lots of the same average standard, than as occurs naturally, high achievers and lower achievers.  Many systems in education and sports appear to promote mediocrity.
In answer to Bilbo, yes my daughter, in my opinion,  is one of the better players, along with six or seven others in the squad. Further, some of the lesser players MAY improve and pass the others, but not all of them. And your reference to well rounded players hint at a part of the English problem, producing players average at everything, instead of excellent driibblers, passers etc.
I am not advocating dumping these kids, because as I have said, they may develop later. However, they need specific coaching, as do the better players. I suppose they issue goes back to money and the cost of extra coaches to action this.
Charlie, regarding your point, the four hours a week are only part of what is necessary. My view is that every second of that should be football. I want to weep when I see them doing pure fitness without a ball. Two hour sessions have enough running, turning etc to maintain fitness. The general fitness should be maintained by the player outside of this, with school P.E. and specific [programmes from the Centre. We did have a very specific programme one Christmas with detailed plans and rest days. When i asked for this to continue through the season, I was told many wouldn't do it!! Well once again I say, this is elite level, and if they don't do it, join many others, the wayside is littered with talented people who didn't like hard work!!

Sylvain

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Re: C.O.E. Selection Policy
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2013, 12:40:46 PM »
I see some similarities in the education system, i.e: it is better to have lots of the same average standard, than as occurs naturally, high achievers and lower achievers.  Many systems in education and sports appear to promote mediocrity.
In answer to Bilbo, yes my daughter, in my opinion,  is one of the better players, along with six or seven others in the squad. Further, some of the lesser players MAY improve and pass the others, but not all of them. And your reference to well rounded players hint at a part of the English problem, producing players average at everything, instead of excellent driibblers, passers etc.
I am not advocating dumping these kids, because as I have said, they may develop later. However, they need specific coaching, as do the better players. I suppose they issue goes back to money and the cost of extra coaches to action this.
Charlie, regarding your point, the four hours a week are only part of what is necessary. My view is that every second of that should be football. I want to weep when I see them doing pure fitness without a ball. Two hour sessions have enough running, turning etc to maintain fitness. The general fitness should be maintained by the player outside of this, with school P.E. and specific [programmes from the Centre. We did have a very specific programme one Christmas with detailed plans and rest days. When i asked for this to continue through the season, I was told many wouldn't do it!! Well once again I say, this is elite level, and if they don't do it, join many others, the wayside is littered with talented people who didn't like hard work!!

Well the biggest problem is if you have a very big elitist system, you will end up with a 7 a side team and not an 11 a side team... And if we apply this thinking  to the current FA WSL teams, in term of elit players, it is a 3 a side game we should see really.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2013, 04:01:45 PM by Sylvain »

Offline Suzie

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Re: C.O.E. Selection Policy
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2013, 12:42:17 PM »
I see both points of view but I must agree with midfield general on the fitness element. I too take my daughter to a centre and every monday and wednesday watch whilst at least 45mins of each sessions is basically taken up by running around a 3g.

My daughter has an high level of fitness not because it comes natural but because on a tues and a thurs she takes it upon herself to go for a run and as built her fitness levels up. Its our belief that when you decide to go to the next level in an elite programme you have to show some commitment yourself. We have also been told that they have to do fitness because the girls don't do anything outside of football!!

There are plenty of fitness drills that could be used with a ball and I believe there is far too much emphasis on fitness rather than technical abilty from the F.A., I would go so far as saying it's because its easy to measure, they can record it, make themselves look good.

England Women didn't do so poorly in the Euro's because teams were fitter than them, they got beat by teams who were technically better than them.

Offline bilbobaggins

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Re: C.O.E. Selection Policy
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2013, 12:46:36 PM »
by the age of fifteen, if a player cant head the ball, take a throw in, run within 10% of the rest of the team, then im sure they wouldnt get in in some areas.
but to encorage all players to dribble would create risk at the back  line, with fancy footwork instead of a quick blocking tackle.
players are also assessed  on social skills etc, there are some great football players in the england team who arent very good at teamwork/social skills.
i can understand the frustration of a player costing a team the match, but thats football development.
the teams are only looking for a couple of good players each season to move up to the seniors and some lose out.
if its very bad then you need to have a word with your team manager first, then the director.
and if too much sport is done at 15 16 years then knees may not last very long.

Offline midfield general

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Re: C.O.E. Selection Policy
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2013, 02:30:15 PM »
Those three categories are way down my list of priorities!! Ball mastery is way ahead. Heading although part of the game is not a priority. Likewise throw ins, just a way of re-starting the game and if someone cannot learn a 'legal' throw in in five minutes I would worry!!
And I've heard the over training theories. Blessed with good genes a good diet and sensible, targeted training over training should not be an issue. Training with an injury, poor running technique, poor footwear are far more likely to cause long term problems.

Offline Banbo

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Re: C.O.E. Selection Policy
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2013, 03:18:47 PM »
The standard at the CofE where my daughter attended for a number of years was always of a high standard in terms of quality and whilst some were obviously better than others none could be classed as poor. However where I feel that improvements should be made are in sessions tailored to individual players, too much emphasis is based on what appears to be a generic training programme of pre-determined drills & fitness sessions. I believe that areas of specific development should be identified for individual players and worked on in 1:2:1 (or very small groups), this may well accelerate the development of players that may be struggling with certain areas of their game or take good performers to the next level.
This approach is taken in a number of schools to drive performance in exams (different setting I know, but the same principles apply).
I would be interested if any CofE's did this as the norm?

Offline bilbobaggins

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Re: C.O.E. Selection Policy
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2013, 03:25:21 PM »
there are people who have experienced  this with their kids who have had injuries worsened by training , this cannot be fixed or prevented by good diet,ever
i have  seen england u15 and 17 players who cant throw a ball in or head the ball properly, in fact i have seen coe u17 players duck a ball rather than head it.
fitness training is important too.

Offline midfield general

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Re: C.O.E. Selection Policy
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2013, 07:45:54 PM »
Missed your seven a side and three a side point completely. Obviously in good teams there are players of different abilities. Players who have a very specialised job within a team. However, we are still talking about elite player development above all else.
Training with an injury as opposed to over training is a totally different issue. As far as I know every Centre has a physio. Ours is at most training and anyone presenting with an injury would be advised accordingly. Generally erring on the side of caution and told not to train.

Sylvain

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Re: C.O.E. Selection Policy
« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2013, 12:02:28 AM »
Missed your seven a side and three a side point completely. Obviously in good teams there are players of different abilities. Players who have a very specialised job within a team. However, we are still talking about elite player development above all else.
Training with an injury as opposed to over training is a totally different issue. As far as I know every Centre has a physio. Ours is at most training and anyone presenting with an injury would be advised accordingly. Generally erring on the side of caution and told not to train.
Sorry I edited my post a few hours later, to add about 3 or 7 a side at FA WSL level. There aren't many elite players in the whole FA WSL probably 30 to 40 maximum.

Just to come back on your original point :

"My point is, that in my opinion, the fact that these players are getting substantial game time  is now detrimental to the better players."

I actually met someone who agreed with that opinion that low quality players were not very useful. His word were all you need is one or two players to destroy your training session by dragging them downwards in term of quality"

The big difference is this guy has a squad of 25 players most of them are professional and are competing for a place in a team fighting with Lyon and PSG for a top 2 finish and therefore qualify for the Champions League 2014/15. So I think this approach is right with the finished article but not with girls who are still learning the game.

I have seen a few U17 CoE games and I think you get 1 to 3 talented players 2 to 5 good players and the rest are normal players. So if the normal players are slowing down the improvement of the other players we are back to 7 a side rather than 11 a side  ??? and those super elite players should be taken care of by the England U15 to U19 squads really.

Offline midfield general

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Re: C.O.E. Selection Policy
« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2013, 11:09:15 AM »
We are probably playing with semantics a little bit here and what any of us define as 'elite' players. In theory, all in the C.o.E.s are elite players, in that they are at the highest level attainable in girls football in their age group. By definition in or around the best 500 in the country.
I would never agree with the point made by the person you met, that 'these players are not very useful' but possibly the sentiments echoing my previous comments, that lower ability, in all disciplines, affects the ability of coaches to deliver genuinely productive sessions with such a range of abilities. Back to the previous point regarding number of coaches, and cost of delivering split sessions.
The goalkeepers have specialised coaching for one session per week, why not one split session for the other players.
Your assessment of player quality through the teams I suggest is pretty accurate but based on that you still need the other players to make up 11 a side, which supports my point. Your two or three top players play all of every game, the next group play most of every game, then the gaps are filled by, lets call them the 'improvers' (and move into political correctness). And their game time is relative to progress, application in training. The 'groupings' should not be set in stone though. Movement up and down based on set criteria, application, effort, improvement etc. is crucial to motivation and progress.
My view of our 18 girl squad: 2 goalies, so half a game each. 7 top players, 5 middle, and 4 lower.

Offline andydinger

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Re: C.O.E. Selection Policy
« Reply #19 on: October 23, 2013, 04:52:23 PM »
My view of our 18 girl squad: 2 goalies, so half a game each. 7 top players, 5 middle, and 4 lower.
What if one of the goalies is an England player and the other is there just to cover for injury and absence? Shouldn't they be in the top & lower categories too? My point is that the game-time share is far more obvious for the goalie position as there is only 1 of them on the pitch, but I think the equal share should apply to all players at youth level.

However, I agree that subs have to be done at suitable breaks and not continuously throughout the game as that messes everyone about. The idea of playing 3 thirds with subs only at the intervals is a good one that I've seen work well in the FDP. In a 15-outfielder squad, all players get 2 thirds on the pitch irrespective of ability. But this has to be in pre-planned formations that put players in positions suitable for their development where stronger and weaker players can work alongside each other. Where I've seen it fail is when the coach tries to organise it on the fly in response to the game situation or where there's a strong starting 11 and middle 11 and a weak finishing 11.