Author Topic: Transition to Senior Footy from CoE  (Read 7981 times)

Offline #1

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Re: Transition to Senior Footy from CoE
« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2012, 10:13:04 AM »
I thought every team had an integrated pathway COE/Academies -> Reserves-> first team  except teams like Man United of course   ???
As far as I know most of the County FA CoEs don't have senior teams (Middlesex, Hampshire, Dorset, Devon, etc). It's interesting that it's these teams that are starting to lose a few U17 players to the CoEs and Academies that do. I don't know if this is because "if not in England U15s then forget u17s" is really true (see other threads on FA scouting and selection) so they're thinking of their own future progression rather than just being FA fodder...


Good point, but if this happens, then the senior teams need their heads looking at. Any senior team can use any CoE of clubs side to strengthen their squad; if they choose to use only their CoE as a feeder team then they stand to miss out on some superb players.

Offline andydinger

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Re: Transition to Senior Footy from CoE
« Reply #21 on: September 23, 2012, 08:21:35 AM »
Good point, but if this happens, then the senior teams need their heads looking at. Any senior team can use any CoE of clubs side to strengthen their squad; if they choose to use only their CoE as a feeder team then they stand to miss out on some superb players.
This would of course assume that those Womens teams had scouts with enough time to go round CoE U17 games and check out potential "targets". Unfortunately most Premiership teams don't have any scouts at all, and most CoEs won't pass on contact details or playing summaries to anyone except the FA, even if they'd allow the scouts through the gate! So it's down to the CoE girls themselves attending trials at the Premiership clubs, and there's no better trial than a final year in a U17 team who train with the seniors.

As you can tell I'm not a fan of these County FA CoEs who have been invented purely for the FA's "geographical spread". My belief that every Super League and Premiership womens team should have a licensed FA CoE has been strengthened by what I've seen happen to the unfortunate U17s who "graduated" from these County CoEs. How many of these are now playing in the Premiership or Reserves League?

Sylvain

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Re: Transition to Senior Footy from CoE
« Reply #22 on: September 23, 2012, 08:36:50 AM »
As you can tell I'm not a fan of these County FA CoEs who have been invented purely for the FA's "geographical spread". My belief that every Super League and Premiership womens team should have a licensed FA CoE has been strengthened by what I've seen happen to the unfortunate U17s who "graduated" from these County CoEs. How many of these are now playing in the Premiership or Reserves League?
The County CoE closest to where I live has seen many players go in the National and Southern Division and also in the reserves. To be fair there are many teams in the London area, so it is easier to carry on and find a good team.

Offline BeautifulGame

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Re: Transition to Senior Footy from CoE
« Reply #23 on: September 23, 2012, 06:36:14 PM »
Good point, but if this happens, then the senior teams need their heads looking at. Any senior team can use any CoE of clubs side to strengthen their squad; if they choose to use only their CoE as a feeder team then they stand to miss out on some superb players.
This would of course assume that those Womens teams had scouts with enough time to go round CoE U17 games and check out potential "targets". Unfortunately most Premiership teams don't have any scouts at all, and most CoEs won't pass on contact details or playing summaries to anyone except the FA, even if they'd allow the scouts through the gate! So it's down to the CoE girls themselves attending trials at the Premiership clubs, and there's no better trial than a final year in a U17 team who train with the seniors.

As you can tell I'm not a fan of these County FA CoEs who have been invented purely for the FA's "geographical spread". My belief that every Super League and Premiership womens team should have a licensed FA CoE has been strengthened by what I've seen happen to the unfortunate U17s who "graduated" from these County CoEs. How many of these are now playing in the Premiership or Reserves League?

There is no doubt that there is a difficult gap for girls exiting CoE at 16 or 17. In my view, if the FA were serious (money is always the issue) they would introduce an U19 CoE which I heard was mooted a couple of years back. I have heard from a number of coaches (and observed myself) that the technical quality of the CoE girls is better than what you see in the womens league, but the issue is that they can get intimidated if thrown straight in to the lions den. The physicality is an issue, which, if you have coaches intent on results can be an issue.

Not sure if anyone else was at Wembley for the Olympics Final, but Japan played the US off the park - wonderful passing football that is how the game should be played. This mirrors how the CoEs are teaching their girls to play football which must surely be good?

I cant speak for other County FAs but Middlesex have a direct pathway in to Barnet (same coaching team) who are in the Premier League and 3 of last years' players are now playing at that level. The CEO also discussed and placed the other exiting players to appropriate Southern Division sides.

That said, I do believe that clubs (like Reading / QPR) do offer a more cohesive transition with U18/reserves.

Finally, we all have to remember that whatever we think of the CoE system, our (precious!) daughters do have to go out in to the real world where competition is quite rightly the norm and they need to be tough if they are going to make it!



Offline #1

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Re: Transition to Senior Footy from CoE
« Reply #24 on: September 24, 2012, 10:10:16 AM »
I thought every team had an integrated pathway COE/Academies -> Reserves-> first team  except teams like Man United of course   ???
As far as I know most of the County FA CoEs don't have senior teams (Middlesex, Hampshire, Dorset, Devon, etc). It's interesting that it's these teams that are starting to lose a few U17 players to the CoEs and Academies that do. I don't know if this is because "if not in England U15s then forget u17s" is really true (see other threads on FA scouting and selection) so they're thinking of their own future progression rather than just being FA fodder...

.."if not in England U15s then forget u17s".... If this is the case, then what is the point of the U17 age group in the CoE? They're always advising that its to represent England. Do those who dont get in at U15s and want to play for England simply go back to club football for U17s? Discuss, including salient points..... :-\ 

Sylvain

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Re: Transition to Senior Footy from CoE
« Reply #25 on: September 24, 2012, 05:05:06 PM »
.."if not in England U15s then forget u17s".... If this is the case, then what is the point of the U17 age group in the CoE? They're always advising that its to represent England. Do those who dont get in at U15s and want to play for England simply go back to club football for U17s? Discuss, including salient points..... :-\  

Well I think it is for the girls to carry on their development through this age group. I mean not many girls get to play for England probably 20/30 maximum per year.
If club football has better training sessions why not go back to it though.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2012, 01:26:38 AM by Sylvain »

Offline andydinger

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Re: Transition to Senior Footy from CoE
« Reply #26 on: September 25, 2012, 10:25:09 AM »
Well I think it is for the girls to carry on their development through this age group. I mean not many girls get to play for England probably 20/30 maximum per year.
If club football has better training sessions why not go back to it though.
I agree with Sylvain that the majority of U17s, whether at CoEs or Academies, are learning to play Women's football, not learning to play for England. I think it should be as much a condition of a CoE's license that they develop players for the Super League and Premiership teams, as it is to do so for England. If a CoE cannot demonstrate as good a link as Middlesex (and Barnet are a very good club to progress to, even if coming up against Sunderland and Man City in their 1st 2 games of the season was a bit harsh!) then they should be kicked out of the programme.

Treating non-International girls as extras to make up the numbers in a U17 competition and then leaving them to their own devices when they "graduate" is a scandal that needs addressing. However, the Super League teams mostly have this well sorted and the FA have never seen the need to provide any support to the Premiership teams so I really don't hold out any hope of this neglect being tackled.  >:(

49yardtapin

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Re: Transition to Senior Footy from CoE
« Reply #27 on: September 25, 2012, 12:18:29 PM »
Part of the criteria of the CoE's is that they must demonstrate a pathway/link to a Super League club as well as elsewhere. This was part of the critieria they had to fill last last time to obtain a licence...

Offline On the ball

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Re: Transition to Senior Footy from CoE
« Reply #28 on: September 25, 2012, 07:54:55 PM »
Many County FA's provide better links for girls to transfer into clubs then centres run by 'clubs'. Playing at Arsenal COE for example, doesn't guarantee you a place in their reserves or first team. County FA run COE's find girls the most suitable club to play at upon leaving COE depending on their capabilities and where they live.  I am aware that with Middlesex for example there is a clear pathway into Barnet Ladies - where the U17s coach and centre director work, but girls are also encouraged to trial for clubs in the Southern Prem (QPR, Reading, Brighton) depending on where they live. From last years graduating u17s at Middlesex, 3 made the transition to Barnet Ladies First Team, 1 went to Watford Ladies and 1 is playing at Alex Scott's Academy.  Being a County FA doesn't limit the girls ability to move onto Ladies Football, on the contrary it provides them with more options and the freedom to chose where they progress to.
The Middlesex U17s are also allowed to train with the Barnet Ladies during half terms and in July during pre-season. Middlesex U13s and U15s are encouraged to attend Barnet Ladies home games as ball girls or programme sellers.


Sylvain

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Re: Transition to Senior Footy from CoE
« Reply #29 on: September 25, 2012, 10:08:16 PM »
Playing at Arsenal COE for example, doesn't guarantee you a place in their reserves or first team.
Arsenal is a bad example as a club with a pathway to the first team. Once in a blue moon, one player goes through the whole way COE/reserves/first team. Over the last 8 years I have been watching consistently the reserves and first team, you can count on the fingers of one hand those who are regulars in the first team. Today out of the 150 to 200 players that had a game in the reserves. There are 2  Flaherty and Davison. And to be fair, that policy has been extremely succesfull in term of trophy won.

I am sure other clubs do a better job of promoting the youngsters that came through the ranks. That's the way Watford used last season to get away from relegation by promoting massively 17 and 18 years old to the first team.

Offline andydinger

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Re: Transition to Senior Footy from CoE
« Reply #30 on: September 26, 2012, 04:37:47 PM »
From the replies on this thread it is obvious that Middlesex is a good example of what can be achieved by a County CoE. But there are plenty out there (including, I suspect, some Club CoEs) that have retained their license despite only paying lip-service to progression beyond U17 (see Cheeks100's original post in this thread for a start). The key to progression is integrated training at the U17/Womens level (e.g. as Watford Academy do), not mere "encouragement to trial" after the girls have graduated. The chances of a successful trial are significantly enhanced if the U17 players has already faced the physical challenge of more experienced players.

Oh, and the only problem with Super League CoEs is that the standard required to get into their Womens teams is so much higher than the Premiership. But that's a good problem to have!

Sylvain

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Re: Transition to Senior Footy from CoE
« Reply #31 on: October 05, 2012, 10:41:48 AM »
.."if not in England U15s then forget u17s".... If this is the case, then what is the point of the U17 age group in the CoE? They're always advising that its to represent England. Do those who dont get in at U15s and want to play for England simply go back to club football for U17s? Discuss, including salient points..... :-\ 
If you look at the latest England U19 squad, there are loads of girls who were not selected at U17 level so for those who wants to play for Engladn, the door will be opened later.

Offline bilbobaggins

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Re: Transition to Senior Footy from CoE
« Reply #32 on: October 05, 2012, 01:35:29 PM »
a lot of people seem to think that if your in at u15, then you go on to play in the senior ranks.
this is not the casefor all  as some girls are forward in development at u15 but fail to improve much.
the younger players in super league and national football have as much chance in the future.

Sylvain

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Re: Transition to Senior Footy from CoE
« Reply #33 on: October 05, 2012, 02:39:24 PM »
Definitely if we have a look at an old FA news about U15 from July 2006 more than 6 years ago :

I have put in bold those who are in the England senior  squad nowadays and in Italics those with the U23 in the latest squad and underlibed the FA WSL players


"During a busy start to the season for the England Women's teams, the U15 PLayer Development pool will meet for a three day training camp at Lilleshall between 8-10 August.

Lead Coach Julie Chipchase has named one of her own club starlets Letesha Cannonier in the squad, with all corners of the country well represented.

The carrot for some of these players could be a place in the England U17 squad to play in the UEFA qualifiers for the inaugural 2008 FIFA Women's World Championship, provisionally scheduled for this October.

England Squad: (Club and/or Centre of Excellence)

Lauren Farmery (Doncaster Parkland Rovers), Emma Green (Wolverhampton Wanderers), Rachel Laws (Sunderland), Abigail Lewis (Birmingham City), Channelle Swadling (Lincoln)

Naomi Cole (Fulham), Chynna Evans (Plymouth Argyle), Jodi Jacobs (Chelsea), Megan Jiggins (Colchester United), Shanique Noughton (Sheffield United), Jemma Rose (Plymouth Argyle), Ruby Staplehurst (Fulham), Amy Turner (Sheffield United), Georgina Watton (Wolverhampton Wanderers

Grace Abrahams (Brighton & Hove Albion), Sophia Bouyi (Brighton & Hove Albion), Letesha Cannonier (Leeds United), Melissa Fletcher (Reading), Ashleigh Goddard (Arsenal), Stepahnie Marsh (Everton), Kerri-Ann Moxom (Cornwall), Jordan Nobbs (Middlesbrough), Katrine Nutman (Colchester United), Drew Spence (Fulham)   

Rebecca Jane (Fulham), Kasha Lipka (Sheffield United), Charlotte Perkiss (Crewe), Rachel Pitman (Downend Flyers), Laura Smith (Sheffield United), 
Natalie Tomkins (Crewe)

Lead Coach Julie Chipchase has had to make five changes to her training squad.

During a busy start to the season for the England Women's teams, the U15 Player Development pool will meet for a three day training camp at Lilleshall between 8-10 August.

Lead Coach Julie Chipchase has had to make five changes to her initial squad, with Lauren Farmery, Mellissa Fletcher, Kasia Lipka, Stephanie Marsh and Ruby Staplehurst all now unavailable.

In their places to pull on the Three Lions training shirt come Chloe Roberts (Plymouth Argyle), Sarah Penny (Stockport County), Melissa Hughes (Wolverhampton Wanderers), Rebecca Thomas (Wolverhampton Wanderers) and Hollie Loud (Bristol Academy).

The carrot for some of these players could be a place in the England U17 squad to play in the UEFA qualifiers for the inaugural 2008 FIFA Women's World Championship, provisionally scheduled for this October."