Author Topic: Norsk Språkdiskusjon  (Read 104047 times)

Offline norge95

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Norsk Språkdiskusjon
« on: December 03, 2008, 06:04:14 PM »
Since there are several regulars in this norsk kvinnefotball forum who are attempting to learn norsk I thought it might be a good idea to have a thread dedicated to norsk språkdiskusjon (Norwegian language discussion).

Here is today's norsk leksjon courtesy of Andreas 8) :


http://womensfootball.eu/forum/index.php/topic,4334.msg26004.html#msg26004

Oh, you asked me to nitpick, so I bring you today's false friend:
List: Moulding, skirting board or cunning.
Liste: list.

Here's the link to my favorite online norsk ordbok:

http://www.tritrans.net/index.html

When I use tritrans to look up list, I get the following results:

foxiness, guile, shiftiness
« Last Edit: December 03, 2008, 06:12:09 PM by norge95 »
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Offline Alan

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Re: Norsk Språkdiskusjon
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2008, 06:48:55 PM »
The book I use is the Routledge Norwegian dictionary, also published in Norway as Cappelen's Engelsk Ordbok.  It's over 500 pages but is intended for Norwegian students so genders are not given, so for genders (e.g. et stort hus vs. en stor mann) I have a small Berlitz dictionary.  Or, just guess, I am sure it doesn't matter but you don't want to seem like a 5-year-old :)
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Offline norge95

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Norsk Ordbøker
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2008, 07:20:41 PM »
The book I use is the Routledge Norwegian dictionary, also published in Norway as Cappelen's Engelsk Ordbok.  It's over 500 pages but is intended for Norwegian students so genders are not given, so for genders (e.g. et stort hus vs. en stor mann) I have a small Berlitz dictionary.  Or, just guess, I am sure it doesn't matter but you don't want to seem like a 5-year-old :)

I have the Engelsk-Norsk/Norsk-Engelsk Blå Ordbøker that I bought at the University of Oslo bookstore.  I also have the Einar Haugen Norwegian English Dictionary that I used when I was taking a beginning norsk kurs from Sons of Norway.

The reason why I like tritrans so much is because it is quick and easy to use while I am online and because the third language is Spanish.  I'm almost embarrassed to admit that I actually studied Spanish for four years (two years in middle school and two years in high school).  I was a straight "A" student, but I'm sorry to say that I'm still not even conversational en español.  :-[
« Last Edit: December 03, 2008, 07:23:24 PM by norge95 »
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Offline Bonnie Lass

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Re: Norsk Språkdiskusjon
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2008, 09:05:34 PM »
Truthfully, Google translate isn't bad at all. Especially if you just want a quickie translation.

I'll have to grab my Norwegian dictionary at home and see which one it is. It's quite large and heavy and was originally published way back in the 60s or 70s, IIRC.
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Offline Andreas Kolle

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Re: Norsk Språkdiskusjon
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2008, 09:08:59 PM »
Si es mejor, podemos escribir en español, es igual. Bueno, no igual, pero comprendo unas palabras.

I use Kunnskapsforlagets blå ordbok, because I'm stuck in English, especially trying to find the right nuance for certain words when I translate. I hade a real problem with "miljø".

Offline norge95

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Re: Norsk Språkdiskusjon
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2008, 09:15:06 PM »
Truthfully, Google translate isn't bad at all. Especially if you just want a quickie translation.

Okey Bonnie Lass, I'll have to check out Google's norsk translator.  In the past I haven't been all that impressed with most of the online translators I have found.

In fact a few of them were so bad I felt like I was in the middle of a Monty Python sketch.   ;D 

"My hovercraft is full of eels..."   :D


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4Z5Sll7uow
« Last Edit: December 03, 2008, 09:23:04 PM by norge95 »
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Offline norge95

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Re: Norsk Språkdiskusjon
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2008, 09:26:13 PM »
Si es mejor, podemos escribir en español, es igual. Bueno, no igual, pero comprendo unas palabras.

Kult!!  8)  Du er så veldig flink at du kan skriv litt på spansk!!  Jeg er veldig imponert!!

I use Kunnskapsforlagets blå ordbok, because I'm stuck in English, especially trying to find the right nuance for certain words when I translate. I hade a real problem with "miljø".

I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Kunnskapsforlagets Blå Ordbøker are the top selling Engelsk-Norsk/Norsk Engelsk dictionaries in Norway. Just about all of my friends in Norway have copies.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2008, 09:31:38 PM by norge95 »
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Offline Andreas Kolle

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Re: Norsk Språkdiskusjon
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2008, 09:38:57 PM »
Gracias! Como te dije, he visitado a Mexico (y San Diego, pero no acuerdo nada).

Kunnskapsforlaget: They are by far. No idea why, but they're sort of an institution.

Offline norge95

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Re: Norsk Språkdiskusjon
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2008, 09:42:49 PM »
Gracias! Como te dije, he visitado a Mexico (y San Diego, pero no acuerdo nada).

Kult! 8)

Kanskje du kan skriv spansk bedre enn jeg skriv norsk.
:-[ 
(Please feel free to nitpick as much as you want to, especially in this thread.   ;D )
« Last Edit: December 04, 2008, 04:37:22 AM by norge95 »
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Offline Alan

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Re: Norsk Språkdiskusjon
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2008, 11:21:29 PM »
Andreas - I have trouble with miljø as well because it is a straight import from French milieu.  In English we often give up and use milieu, but in a football context it sounds a bit poncy, too middle-class.

Another example is nivå, another French import from niveau.  And tante  :)
« Last Edit: December 03, 2008, 11:23:34 PM by Alan »
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Offline Bonnie Lass

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Re: Norsk Språkdiskusjon
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2008, 04:46:28 AM »
OK, random question:

I was flipping through my dictionary one day, just skimming words and I came upon a word that meant 'Eyes of Dead Things.' But I cannot for the life of me remember what it was ... I tried looking under død and øye and didn't find anything. I just thought it was interesting that it was a singular word.

(Not that I'm weird or anything ...)
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Offline norge95

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Re: Norsk Språkdiskusjon
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2008, 04:49:29 AM »
Andreas - I have trouble with miljø as well because it is a straight import from French milieu. 

Når jeg tenkt om norsk ord miljø, I immediately think of "environment" på engelsk.

Here is what I found when I looked up miljø using tritrans:

Engelsk:  adjacence, environment, environmental, environs, surroundings

Spansk:  alrededores, ambiente, medioambiental, ruedo

In English we often give up and use milieu, but in a football context it sounds a bit poncy, too middle-class.

Tusen takk Alan for mentioning that "a bit poncy" is "too middle-class." I have never heard "poncy" before in my life.  Not even on Monty Python or Faulty Towers.   :D

In this thread I can see that I might also need a British English to American English dictionary to go with my norsk ordbøker;D
« Last Edit: December 04, 2008, 04:55:55 AM by norge95 »
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Offline norge95

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Re: Norsk Språkdiskusjon
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2008, 05:10:20 AM »
OK, random question:

I was flipping through my dictionary one day, just skimming words and I came upon a word that meant 'Eyes of Dead Things.' But I cannot for the life of me remember what it was ... I tried looking under død and øye and didn't find anything. I just thought it was interesting that it was a singular word.

(Not that I'm weird or anything ...)

I haven't got a clue what the norsk ord for 'Eyes of Dead Things' would be, but have a question for you.  I noticed that you are using apostrophes instead of quotes around the English translation of the norsk ord you are searching for. 

I typically use quotes around an English translation that appears within a sentence, but am not really sure why.  I'm wondering if this is just a personal preference of yours to use apostrophes instead of quotes or do you know something I don't know.  :)
« Last Edit: December 04, 2008, 05:12:00 AM by norge95 »
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Offline Andreas Kolle

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Re: Norsk Språkdiskusjon
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2008, 08:31:19 AM »
Nivå is generally translatable with "level", I find. Tante, however, you're stuck with. The alternatives are rarely used ("moster", which is really Swedish, sounds awfully awkward).


norge95:
The problem with "miljø" is the double meaning. Environment certainly covers the bit that is out there in the wild and must not be polluted, but it doesn't quite cover the second meaning. Which is more the athmosphere within a group, the general tone of things. If you, for example, work somewhere where you have good colleagues and lots of fun, that would be a good "miljø". Which, of course, pops up in 80% of all Røa-related articles.

And in my experience, being an anglophiliac, you wouldn't hear the word "poncy" in Monty Python or derivates. "Poncy" is too low brow to be uttered by Monty Python, who are actually a bit "poncy" themselves.

Bonnie: I have no idea which word you're talking of, so I'm really excited.

 

Offline Alan

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Re: Norsk Språkdiskusjon
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2008, 09:38:26 AM »
Andreas, yes, I forgot to say nivå and tante translate into English as level and aunt.  Poncy also has an element of pretentiousness about it.

It's great what we think of to pass the time when there is no football news :)
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Offline Andreas Kolle

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Re: Norsk Språkdiskusjon
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2008, 11:04:17 AM »
Indeed. When silly season doesn't get us thinking. I'm still hoping in vain that Sola will play for Røa, although there rarely are anyone who has gone from Kolbotn to Røa or vice versa.

norge95, your Norwegian is generally good, but as you do ask: You have some problems with conjugation of verbs, but nothing much. You say "Når jeg tenkt om" which makes little sense. It's probably "When I thoght about", but tenkt is perfect participle. "Når jeg tenker" or "Da jeg tenkte".

And really nitpciking here: "Da" specifies past, "Når" specifies repetitive actions, the clue is "Den gang da, hver gang når (that time "da", each time "når")". Also tenke [seg] om means to ponder. "Tenke på" is more accurate. You also have a tendency of writing only the core of the verb (skriv rather than skrive and skriver).

That being said, you are all very good.

Another question: do you ever work on your diction?
The reason I ask is that not only is Norwegian underexposed in media (well, not really, but for your purposes), but it's really tricky to pronounce. At least I would think. Esepcially "Mykjåland".

Offline Alan

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Re: Norsk Språkdiskusjon
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2008, 11:19:17 AM »
The spoken bit is difficult, definitely, but I am sitting here listening to NRK radio P1 Nordland just now.  You can have a trip round Norway just by listening to the different P1s. 

I would not say it is more difficult than other languages.  The main difficulty with speaking is what letters to leave out . . . I mean 'god' is pronounced 'goo' but 'godt' is pronounced 'goot' with a stong 't' on the end.  That is not logical but English is worse by many miles (Norwegian miles)  :)

The main difficulty with the written word is compound nouns, and deciding where they are split, and a good example I saw was 'medaljesus' which splits as 'medalje sus', but to a foreign eye that is not obvious, it took a while for the penny to drop with that word.
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Offline norge95

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Re: Norsk Språkdiskusjon
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2008, 11:54:09 AM »

norge95, your Norwegian is generally good, but as you do ask: You have some problems with conjugation of verbs, but nothing much. You say "Når jeg tenkt om" which makes little sense. It's probably "When I thoght about", but tenkt is perfect participle. "Når jeg tenker" or "Da jeg tenkte".

Tusen takk for hjelpen.  Even though what I wrote was grammatically incorrect, you still understood what I wanted to write and I think that has been one of the challenges I've had with respect to learning norsk.

For the past 13+ years I have been sending email to friends in Norway and I almost always attempt til å skrive litt på norsk.  However, very few of my friends ever make any corrections.  Perhaps they don't want to discourage me, but as a result of this, I'm unfortunately still making some of the same mistakes I was making back in 1995. :-[


And really nitpciking here: "Da" specifies past, "Når" specifies repetitive actions, the clue is "Den gang da, hver gang når (that time "da", each time "når")". Also tenke [seg] om means to ponder. "Tenke på" is more accurate. You also have a tendency of writing only the core of the verb (skriv rather than skrive and skriver).

That being said, you are all very good.

Tusen takk for norsk leksjon! Det var snilt av deg! :)

Another question: do you ever work on your diction?
The reason I ask is that not only is Norwegian underexposed in media (well, not really, but for your purposes), but it's really tricky to pronounce. At least I would think. Esepcially "Mykjåland".

I belong to several Norwegian organizations and when we have our meetings, I like to arrive early and sometimes stay late to create some opportunities for myself til å snakke litt norsk.

It is funny you mention Mykjåland because I was on a personal mission to learn how to properly pronounce her name when I was in Norway two years ago.  It really paid off this summer when I had the chance to request an interview with Mykjåland in Fredrikstad after the Norge-USA match.  8)

Mykjåland might actually have been one of the toughest names in recent years on the kvinnelandslaget for Americans to pronounce. It got really ugly at times during VM '07 when the ESPN commentators attempted to pronounce Lenes navn and ended up calling her "Mick-holland" or some other strange variations of this.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2008, 12:26:03 PM by norge95 »
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Offline Andreas Kolle

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Re: Norsk Språkdiskusjon
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2008, 12:17:10 PM »
You're going for Nordland? Interesting. I suppose you know what colourful language they have.

It's good to say that it isn't more difficult than other languages. In my opinion, Spanish is dead easy because it is almost pronounced exactly as it is written, but with English "r"s, I suppose that's a matter of argument.

Something that many, even Norwegians, have problems with is theKj/skj/ki/ky: which is summed up as skj/kj.
s you probably know, skj is often like in "National", whilst I have no clear idea of when the "kj" sound enters the English language. Hence "Mykjåland".

And yes, the -d in the end of words is often skipped: Hund, gård, vind. In some cases it is important, such as in Gud (God). Gu would have soundes silly. It's a matter of soft (b,d,g) versus hard (p,t,k) consonants. You hardly skip a hard consonant in Norwegian.
We also love diphtongs (two different wovels following each other).

Compound nouns create problems for Norwegians as well. It has actually lead to the creation of the group AMO (Astronomer Mot Orddeling), which grew rapidly in popularity. For what it's worth, medaljesus took a bit of time for me. It could have been medal jesus, wherein Jesus is a sort of devoted character or a mock name:brillejesus sort of translates into "four eyes". Of course, medal doesn't mean anyting.

norge95, I shall continue ruthlessly on this tread.  ;)
And Mykjåland is a tounge twister, so I understand ESPN. That's at least one name they don't have to learn. And I just checked: there are 82 people in Norway with Mykjåland as a surname. Out of 4.5 million. Not exactly common. There are 527 with the name Wergeland in Norway, to give you something to compare with.

Offline norge95

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Re: Norsk Språkdiskusjon
« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2008, 12:31:37 PM »

The main difficulty with the written word is compound nouns, and deciding where they are split, and a good example I saw was 'medaljesus' which splits as 'medalje sus', but to a foreign eye that is not obvious, it took a while for the penny to drop with that word.

The compound words are also a big challenge for me as well.  It is sometimes quite embarrassing when you separate the words incorrectly.  On first glance, your example looks like 'medal' + 'jesus' to me.  :o  :-[

It looks like learning some British English expressions is going to be an added bonus for me in this thread.   8) I honestly have never heard the expression "taking a while for the penny to drop" before now.
Bente Nordby - Verdens Beste Keeper

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(Please correct my mistakes)